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Minggu, 23 Oktober 2011

Review of America the Vulnerable Posted

Amazon.com just posted my five star review of America the Vulnerable by Joel Brenner. I reproduce the review in its entirety below.

I've added bold in some places to emphasize certain areas.




America the Vulnerable (ATV) is one of the best "big picture" books I've read in a long while. The author is a former NSA senior counsel and inspector general, and was the National Counterintelligence Executive (NCIX). In these roles he could "watch the fireworks" (not his phrase, but one popular in the intel community) while the nation suffered massive data exfiltration to overseas adversaries. ATV explains the problem in terms suitable for those familiar with security issues and those learning about these challenges. By writing ATV, Joel Brenner accurately and succinctly frames the problems facing the US and the West in cyberspace.

In this review I'd like to highlight some of Mr Brenner's insights and commentary.

On pp 65-7 he discusses "China's Long View... China had the world's largest economy for eighteen of the past twenty centuries. The two exceptions were those of America's youth and rise to power.... Like India, China does not regard Western domination as normal, and it does not suffer from an inferiority complex. China's chief national strategic objectives are to lift its population out of poverty and reestablish its place in the international order."

On pp 68-71 he explains the problem with the binary thinking of Westerners regarding war. China does not see war as a binary issue, where one is either at peace OR at war. "This kind of ambiguity is difficult for Americans to digest. We are direct and aboveboard, and we like to think others are like us -- or would be if given half a chance... [W]e suffer from a Western misconception in our law, religion, and policy that 'peace' and 'war' are opposites that cannot occur at the same time... Many Americans cling to this view, even though war has not been declared on the planet since 1945, while there have been hundreds of organized, violent, and militarized struggles in the interim."

On pp 71-3 he reiterates my point that the consequences of digital assault from China are indeed new, as well as the assault itself. "Our companies are under constant, withering attack. After the Google heist, companies [all emphasis is original] started asking the government for help in defending themselves against nations. This was unprecedented. We are now in uncharted territory... the boundary between economic security and national security has completely disappeared... While the scope of and intensity of economic espionage have assumed startling proportions, the 'traditional' espionage assault on our national defense establishment dwarfs anything we have ever before experienced."

On pp 75-77 Mr Brenner describes instances of espionage and consequences. "[Chi Mak] is the first spy (that we know of) through whom we lost critical military secrets and who was not a government employee. He will not be the last. If further proof were required, the case thus illustrates how thoroughly the functional boundary between the private sector and the government has dissolved... In essence, the PRC is leveraging the Pentagon's R&D budget in support of its own war-making capability."

Mr Brenner focuses on Chinese espionage in ATV; the following from p 78 is a good summary: "In contrast to the Russians, who are highly professional, the PRC often enlists amateurs from among a huge pool of sympathizers."

In the middle of the book Mr Brenner concentrates on the China threat by correctly identifying that the Chinese do not want a shooting war with the US. Rather (quoting Chinese military thinkers on p 118) "the objective in warfare would not be killing or occupying territory, but rather paralyzing the enemy's military and financial computer networks and its telecommunications. How? By taking out the enemy's power system. Control, not bloodshed, would be the goal... [Continuing on pp 126-7,] The Prussian Carl von Clausewitz, and Mao after him, had called war 'politics by other means.' [Strategists] Qiao and Wang seemed to be saying the reverse: Politics -- and economics and communications and everything else -- was war by other means. And while Clausewitz had preached the doctrine of the decisive battle, Qiao and Wang said there would be no more decisive battles."

Ch 9, "Thinking About Intelligence," is one of my favorite chapters because Mr Brenner examines the role of information and intelligence agencies in the modern world. On p 196 he makes a fascinating point: "To understand the future of the private sector's role in intelligence, we don't need a crystal ball. We can just as well look backward as forward, because we are experiencing a return to a historical norm." He then argues that the private sector is developing intel capabilities rivaling the government, which was the case prior to the creation of national agencies in the 20th century. On p 209 he recommends the following: "[T]he best way to run an intelligence agency is to focus tightly on the parts of the business that are really secret and separate them from the rest. You spend more money on open-source collection and analysis, and let them happen in controlled but unclassified space. You beef up counterintelligence. And you pay much more attention to the electronic handling and dissemination of information."

In the final chapter he offers some recommendations for improvement. I liked this statement on p 216: "If you wait for the incoming danger to reach you, you won't be able to defend against it. CYBERCOM solves this problem by letting the general in charge of defending national security networks use offensive tools outside his networks in order to know what's coming. To be blunt, espionage is an essential aspect of defense. To know what's coming, we must be living inside our adversaries' networks before they launch attacks against us." Note that is the traditional role of espionage, a model which the Chinese shatter by living inside our companies' networks, solely to steal our intellectual property.

I only found one small typo on p 194: The Yom Kippur War happened in 1973, not 2003.

Overall, I really enjoyed ATV. While I don't think the suggestions for improvement in the last chapter are sufficient to mitigate the threat, several of them are a good start. I highly recommend reading ATV at your earliest opportunity!

Rabu, 18 Mei 2011

America the Vulnerable Arrives This Fall

Today I attended a talk by Joel Brenner, formerly national counterintelligence executive (NCIX) and now a lawyer with Cooley LLP. He talked about the threat to national and economic security posed by our overseas friends. I was most excited to learn that he has a new book arriving this fall titled America the Vulnerable: New Technology and the Next Theat to National Security. Given his experience as NCIX, his former role at NSA, and his current role with intellectual property defense at Cooley, I am looking forward to reading this book!

Minggu, 05 September 2010

One Page to Share with Your Management

I thought this brief question-and-answer session, Richard Clarke: Preparing For A Future Cyberwar by Kim S. Nash extracted the essence of advanced persistent threat problems and how to address them. I'd like to publish the whole article, but instead I'll highlight my favorite sections:

Nash: How can the federal government protect companies?

Clarke: Do more. As a matter of law and policy, the federal government should actively counter industrial espionage.

Most U.S. government counterintelligence operations are focused on intelligence against the government, not companies, and most of those are focused on spies. It's a very 20th-century approach.

Until someone makes law or policy changes that say the U.S. Cyber Command can defend AT&T or Bank of America, it doesn't have the legal authority to do that. I think it should. The government also has to explain the threat to corporations.


Also:

Clarke: Until CEOs and boards of directors are faced with black-and-white evidence that they have lost a terabyte of information and that this has resulted in some other company beating them to market, until they have their noses rubbed in it, they're reluctant to do anything special...

Often, the CIO really needs board-level commitment and CEO commitment, not just of resources but to policies necessary for protection. Most of the time, all people want the CIO to do is keep the network up and costs down. As a result, many CIOs have been hired for their expertise in those areas, not for expertise in figuring out how to make a resilient network that resists attack.


Finally:

Clarke: It should be the federal government's responsibility to tell companies not only when they've been attacked but when others have been, such as their competitors, so they realize this sort of thing is going on...

[S]ometimes companies don't know they've been hacked. But frequently they realize after the fact. You don't know you've lost information until a knockoff of your product or some competing products start showing up in the marketplace.


I agree with all of these sentiments.

Incidentally I started read the library copy of Cyber War but decided I needed to take notes in the margins. So, I bought a copy from Amazon.com. I plan to finish it and review it by the end of the month.

Jumat, 16 Juli 2010

Human Language as the New Programming Language

If you've read the blog for a while you know I promote threat-centric security in addition to vulnerability-centric security. I think both approaches are needed, but I find a lot of security shops ignore threat-centric approaches. But in this brief post I'd like to talk about one skill you're likely to need in a threat-centric team.

Clearly knowledge of programming languages is helpful for vulnerability-centric security. Those who can program in the right languages can help identify vulnerabilities, develop exploits, and do other code-centric work.

Different skills are needed for threat-centric security, however. If a programming language is helpful for vulnerability-centric operations, then a foreign language is helpful for threat-centric operations. Specifically, analysts will find it useful to read and potentially speak the language used by their adversaries. It is likely that while learning a foreign language, and more importantly maintaining or improving that skill, the analyst will learn about the adversary's culture. At the highest level of threat-centric security, analysts understand the adversary not through native eyes, but through the adversary's eyes.

None of this is news to anyone with an intelligence or counterintelligence background, but I think this approach represents additional maturity in an enterprise security program.

Sabtu, 03 Juli 2010

Lessons from NETOPS vs CND

Volume 13 Issue 2 of IATAC's IA Newsletter features an article titled Apples and Oranges: Operating and Defending the Global Information Grid by Dr Robert F Mills, Maj Michael Birdwell, and Maj Kevin Beeker. The article nicely argues for refocusing DoD's "NETOPS" and "CND" missions, where the former is defined currently as

activities conducted to operate and defend the Global Information Grid

and the latter is defined currently as

actions taken to protect, monitor, analyze, detect, and respond to unauthorized activity within DoD information systems and computer networks.

After spending years to "converge" the two missions, the authors argue DoD needs to separate them (as I understand the Air Force has done, bringing back the AFCERT for example).

I'd like to present selected excerpts with my own emphasis.

Cyberspace is a contested, warfighting domain, but we’re not really treating it as such, partly because our language and doctrine have not matured to the point that allows us to do so.

One reflection of our immature language is our inability to clearly differentiate the concepts of network operations (NETOPS) and computer network defense (CND). This creates confusion about the roles and responsibilities for provisioning, sustaining, and defending the network — much less actually using it.

Only by separating these activities can we more effectively organize, train, and equip people to perform those tasks...

Effective CND uses a defense-in-depth strategy and employs intelligence, counterintelligence, law enforcement, and other military capabilities as required. However, the CND culture is largely one of information assurance (e.g., confidentiality, integrity, and availability), system interoperability, and operations and maintenance (O&M).

Many of the things that we routinely call ‘cyberspace defense’ in cyberspace are really just O&M activities — such as setting firewall rules, patching servers and workstations, monitoring audit logs, and troubleshooting circuit problems...

[W]e do not treat cyberspace operations like those conducted in other domains... [T]housands of systems administrators routinely count and scan computers to ensure that their software and operating system patches are current. The objective is 100% compliance, but even if we could achieve that, this is a maintenance activity.

(Indeed, do we even really know how many computers we have, let alone how many are compliant?)

This is no more a defensive activity than counting all the rifles in an infantry company and inspecting them to ensure that they are properly cleaned and in working order.

Our current NETOPS/CND mindset is intentionally focused inward... Contrast this with a traditional warfighting mentality in which we study an adversary’s potential courses of action, develop and refine operational plans to meet national and military objectives, parry thrusts, and launch counter attacks.

While we do worry about internal issues such as security, force protection, logistics, and sustainment, our focus remains outward on the adversary.


Does that sound familiar? An "outward focus on the adversary" reminds me of my concept of threat-centric security instead of "inward" or vulnerability-centric security.

Our intent is not to diminish the importance of NETOPS activities... But they are not defensive activities — at least not in the classical understanding of the concept. Turning to Carl von Clausewitz, we see a much different concept of defense than is currently applied to cyberspace:

"Pure defense, however, would be completely contrary to the idea of war, since it would mean that only one side was waging it....

But if we are really waging war, we must return the enemy’s blows; and these offensive acts in a defensive war come under the heading of ‘defense’ – in other words, our offensive takes place within our own positions or theater of operations.

Thus, a defensive campaign can be fought with offensive battles, and in a defensive battle, we can employ our divisions offensively... So the defensive form of war is not a simple shield, but a shield made up of well-directed blows."


I find it interesting to see these authors cite Clauswitz. Anyone notice attrition.org blast Sun Tzu but speak better of Clauswitz recently?

These definitions of defense do not sound like our current approach to NETOPS and CND. Clausewitz might say we have a shield mentality about cyber defense...

An active defense — one that employs limited offensive action and counterattacks to deny the adversary — will be required to have a genuinely defensive capability in cyberspace.

Our recommendations to remedy this situation are as follows:

  1. Redefine NETOPS as “actions taken to provision and maintain the cyberspace domain.” This would capture the current concepts of operations and maintenance while removing the ambiguity caused by including defense within the NETOPS construct.

  2. Leverage concepts such as ‘mission assurance’ and ‘force protection’ to help change the culture and engage all personnel — users, maintainers, and cyber operators. Everyone has a role in security and force protection, but we are not all cyber defenders. Force protection and mission assurance are focused inward on our mission.

  3. Redefine our CND construct to be more consistent with our approach to the concept of ‘defense’ in the other domains of warfare, to include the concept of active defense. This would shift the concept from maintenance to operations, from inward to outward (to our adversaries). CND is about delivering warfighting effects (e.g., denying, degrading, disrupting, and destroying the cyber capabilities of our adversaries).



I like these three recommendations from a corporate point of view:

  1. IT provides "NETOPS".

  2. User and management training and awareness are "force protection" activities.

  3. CIRTs with Red capabilities, authorized to perform "active defense" against adversaries, perform "CND."


What do you think?

Minggu, 11 Oktober 2009

"Protect the Data" from Whom?

This is a follow-on from my "Protect the Data" Idiot! post. Another question to consider when someone says "protect the data" is this: "from whom?" The answer makes all the difference.

I remember a conversation I overheard or read involving Marcus Ranum and a private citizen discussing threats from nation-state actors.

Questioner: How do you protect yourself from nation-state actors?

MJR: You don't.

Q: What do you do then?

MJR: You lose.


In other words, private citizens (and most organizations who are not nation-state actors) do not have a chance to win against a sufficiently motivated and resourced high-end threat. The only actors who have a chance of defending themselves against high-end threats are other nation-state actors. Furthermore, the defenders don't necessarily have a defensive advantage over average joes because the nation-state possesses superior people, products, or processes. Many nation-state actors are deficient in all three. Rather, nation-state actors can draw on other instruments of power that are unavailable to average joes.

I outlined this approach in my posts The Best Cyber-Defense..., Digital Situational Awareness Methods and Counterintelligence Options for Digital Security:

[T]he best way to protect a nation's intelligence from enemies is to attack the adversary's intelligence services. In other words, conduct aggressive counterintelligence to find out what the enemy knows about you.

In the "protect the data" scenario, this means knowing how the adversary can access the containers holding your data. Nation-states are generally the only organizations with the discipline, experience, and funding to conduct these sorts of CI actions. They are not outside the realm of organized crime or certain private groups with CI backgrounds.

To summarize, it makes no sense to ponder how to "protect the data" without determining what adversaries want it. If we unify against threats we can direct our resources against the adversaries we can possibly counter independently, and then petition others (like our governments and law enforcement) to collaborate against threats that outstrip our authority and defenses.

Minggu, 21 Juni 2009

Offense and Defense Inform Each Other

If you've listened to anyone talking about the Top 20 list called the Consensus Audit Guidelines recently, you've probably heard the phrase "offense informing defense." In other words, talk to your Red Team / penetration testers to learn how they can compromise your enterprise in order to better defend yourself from real adversaries.

I think this is a great idea, but there isn't anything revolutionary about it. It's really just one step above the previous pervasive mindset for digital security, namely identifying vulnerabilities. In fact, this neatly maps into my Digital Situational Awareness ranking. However, if you spend most of your time writing policy and legal documents, and not really having to deal with intrusions, this idea probably looks like a bolt of lightning!

And speaking of the Consensus Audit Guidelines: hey CAG! It's the year 2000 and the SANS Top 20 List wants to talk to you!

The SANS/FBI Top Twenty list is valuable because the majority of successful attacks on computer systems via the Internet can be traced to exploitation of security flaws on this list...

In the past, system administrators reported that they had not corrected many of these flaws because they simply did not know which vulnerabilities were most dangerous, and they were too busy to correct them all...

The Top Twenty list is designed to help alleviate that problem by combining the knowledge of dozens of leading security experts from the most security-conscious federal agencies, the leading security software vendors and consulting firms, the top university-based security programs, and CERT/CC and the SANS Institute.


Expect at some point to hear Beltway Bandits talking about how we need to move beyond talking to the Red Team and how we need to see who is actively exploiting us. Guess what -- that's where the detection and response team lives. Perhaps at some point these "thought leaders" will figure out the best way to defend the enterprise is through counterintelligence operations, like the police use against organized crime?

For now, I wanted to depict that while it is indeed important for offense to inform defense, the opposite is just as critical. After all, how is the Red Team supposed to simulate the adversary if it doesn't know how the adversary operates? A good Red Team can exploit a target using methods known to the Red Team. A great Red Team can exploit a target using methods known to the adversary. Therefore, I created an image describing how offense and defense inform each other. This assumes a sufficiently mature, resourced, and capable set of security teams.



This post may sound sarcastic but I'm not really bitter about the situation. If we keep making progress like this, in 3-5 years the mindset of the information security community will have evolved to where it needed to be ten years ago. I'll keep my eye on the Beltway Bandits to let you know how things proceed.


Richard Bejtlich is teaching new classes in Las Vegas in 2009. Regular Las Vegas registration ends 1 July.

Response to the Möbius Defense

One of you asked me to comment on Pete Herzog's "Möbius Defense". I like Lego blocks, but I don't find the presentation to be especially compelling.

  1. Pete seems to believe that NSA developed "defense in depth" (DiD) as a strategy to defend DoD networks after some sort of catastrophic compromise in the 1970s. DiD as a strategy has existed for thousands of years. DiD was applied to military information well before computers existed, and to the computers of the time before the 1970s as well.

  2. Pete says DiD is

    "all about delaying rather than preventing the advance of an attacker... buying time and causing additional casualties by yielding space... DiD relies on an attacker to lose momentum over time or spread out and thin its massive numbers as it needs to traverse a large area... All the while, various units are positioned to harm the attacker and either cause enough losses in resources to force a retreat or capture individual soldiers as a means of thinning their numbers."

    That's certainly one way to look at DiD, but it certainly isn't the only way. Unfortunately, Pete stands up this straw man only to knock it down later.

  3. Pete next says

    "Multiple lines of defense are situated to prevent various threats from penetrating by defeating one line of defense. 'Successive layers of defense will cause an adversary who penetrates or breaks down one barrier to promptly encounter another Defense-In-Depth barrier, and then another, until the attack ends.'"

    It would be nice to know who he is quoting, but I determined it is some NSA document because I found other people quoting it. I don't necessarily agree with this statement, because plenty of attacks succeed. This means I agree with Pete's criticism here.

  4. So what's the deal with Möbius? Pete says:

    "The modern network looks like a Moebius strip. Interactions with the outside happen at the desktop, the server, the laptop, the disks, the applications, and somewhere out there in the CLOUD. So where is the depth? There is none. A modern network throws all its fight out at once."

    I believe the first section is party correct. The modern enterprise does have many interactions that occur outside of the attack model (if any) imagined by the defenders. The second section is wrong. Although there may be little to no depth in some sections (say my Blackberry) there is plenty of depth elsewhere (at the desktop, if properly defended). The third section is partly correct in the sense that any defense that happens generally occurs at Internet speed, at least as far as exploitation goes. Later phases (detection and response) do not happen all at once. That means time is a huge component of enterprise defense; comprehensive defense doesn't happen all at once.

  5. Pete then cites "Guerrilla Warfare and Special Forces Operations" as a new defensive alternative to DiD, but then really doesn't say anything you haven't heard before. He mentions counterintelligence but that isn't new either.


I've talked about DiD in posts like Mesh vs Chain, Lessons from the Military, and Data Leakage Protection Thoughts.

I think it is good for people to consider different approaches to digital security, but I don't find this approach to be all that clever.


Richard Bejtlich is teaching new classes in Las Vegas in 2009. Regular Las Vegas registration ends 1 July.

Senin, 08 Juni 2009

Counterintelligence Options for Digital Security

As a follow-up to my post Digital Situational Awareness Methods, I wanted to expand on the idea of conducting counterintelligence operations, strictly within the digital security realm. I focus almost exclusively on counter-criminal operations, as opposed to actions against nation-states or individuals.

Those of you who provide security intelligence services (SIS), or subscribe to those services, may recognize some or all of these. By SIS I am not talking about vulnerability notices repackaged from other sources.

Note that some of these approaches can really only be accomplished by law enforcement, or by collaboration with law enforcement. Even taking a step into the underground can be considered suspicious. Therefore, I warn blog readers to not try implementing these approaches unless you are an experienced professional with the proper associations. The idea behind this post is to explain what could be done to determine what one sort of adversary (primarily the criminal underground) knows about your organization. It obviously could be extended elsewhere but that is not the focus of this post.

  1. See who is selling or offering to sell your information or access to your information. This approach is similar to identifying places where credit cards or personally identifiable information are sold. Stepping into the underground and seeing where your company is mentioned is one way to estimate how prevalent your data might be outside your control. This is a passive approach.

  2. Solicit the underground for your organization's data or for access to your organization. By taking this step you ask if anyone would be able to provide stolen data or access to the organization. This is a dangerous step because it may motivate the underground to go looking for data. On the other hand, if your data is freely available you're simply unearthing it. This is the first of the active approaches.

  3. Penetrate adversary infrastructure. By this step I mean gaining entry or control of command-and-control channels or other mechanisms the adversary uses to exploit victim organizations. Security intelligence services do this all the time, but gaining access to a server owned by another organization is fairly aggressive.

  4. Infiltrate the adversary group. An underground organization usually functions as a team. It might be possible to infiltrate that group to learn what it knows about your organization. Acting with law enforcement would be the only real way to more or less "safely" accomplish this task.

  5. Pose as an individual underground member. In this capacity, other criminals with access to your organization's data might come to you. This is exceptionally dangerous too and would only be done in collaboration with law enforcement.


None of these steps are new; you can review success stories posted by the FBI and other organizations to know they work. However, I post them here to reinforce that asset-centric mindset and not just the vulnerability-centric mindset in digital security.


Richard Bejtlich is teaching new classes in Las Vegas in 2009. Regular Las Vegas registration ends 1 July.

Sabtu, 06 Juni 2009

Digital Situational Awareness Methods

I've written about digital situational awareness before, but I wanted to expand on the topic as I continue my series of posts on various aspects of incident detection and response.

Here I would like to describe ways that an enterprise can achieve digital situational awareness, or a better understanding of their security posture. What is interesting about these methods is that they do not exclude each other. In fact, a mature enterprise should pursue all of them, to the extent possible allowed by technical and legal factors.

  1. External notification is the most primitive means of learning the state of the enterprise's security posture. If all you do is wait until law enforcement or the military knock at your door, you're basically neglecting your responsibilities to your organization and customers.

  2. Vulnerability assessment identifies vulnerabilities and exposures in assets. This is necessary but not sufficient, because VA (done by a blue team) typically cannot unearth the complicated linkages and relationships among assets and their protection mechanisms. You have to do it however, and knowing your vulnerabilities and exposures is better than waiting for a knock on the door.

  3. Adversary simulation or penetration testing identifies at least one way that an adversary could exploit vulnerabilities and exposures to compromise a target or satisfy a related objective. AS (done by a red team) shows what can be done, moving beyond the theoretical aspects of VA. Many times this is the only way to really understand the enterprise and prove to management that there is a problem.

  4. Incident detection and response shows that real intruders have compromised the enterprise. If you think it's bad to see your red team exfiltrate data, it's worse when a real bad guy does it. Knowing that intruders are actively exploiting you is almost the best way to achieve digital situational awareness, and it's usually the highest form an enterprise can practice since it's closest to the ground truth of the state of the enterprise.

  5. Counterintelligence operations are the ultimate way to achieve digital situational awareness. As I wrote in The Best Cyber Defense, this means finding out what the enemy knows about you. I covered this extensively in the referenced post, but now you can see where counterintelligence fits in the overall digital situational awareness hierarchy.




Richard Bejtlich is teaching new classes in Las Vegas in 2009. Regular Las Vegas registration ends 1 July.

Minggu, 22 Februari 2009

Black Hat Briefings Justify Supporting Retrospective Security Analysis

One of the tenets of Network Security Monitoring, as repeated in Network Monitoring: How Far?, is collect as much data as you can, given legal, political, and technical means (and constraints) because that approach gives you the best chance to detect and respond to intrusions. The Black Hat Briefings always remind me that such an approach makes sense. Having left the talks, I have a set of techniques for which I can now mine my logs and related data sources for evidence of past attacks.

Consider these examples:

  • Given a set of memory dumps from compromised machines, search them using the Snorting Memory techniques for activity missed when those dumps were first collected.

  • Review Web proxy logs for the presence of IDN in URIs.

  • Query old BGP announcements for signs of past MITM attacks.


You get the idea. The key concept is that none of us are smart enough to know how a certain set of advanced threats are exploiting us right now, or how they exploited us in the past. Once we get a clue to their actions, we can mine our security evidence for indicators of that activity. When we find signs of malicious activity we can focus our methods and expand our view until we have a better idea of the scope of an incident.

This strategy is the only one that has ever worked for digital intrusion victims who are constrained to purely defensive operations. A better alternative, as outlined in The Best Cyber Defense, is to conduct aggressive counterintelligence to find out what the enemy knows about you. Since that tactic is outside the scope for the vast majority of us, we should adopt a mindset, toolset, and tactics that enable retrospective security analysis -- the ability to review past evidence for indicators of modern attacks.

If you only rely on your security products to produce alerts of any type, or blocks of any type, you will consistently be "protected" from only the most basic threats. Advanced threats know how to evade many defenses because they test and hone their techniques before deploying them in the wild.

NSM has always implemented retrospective security analysis, but the idea applies to a wide variety of security evidence.


Richard Bejtlich is teaching new classes in Europe in 2009. Register by 1 Mar for the best rates.

Senin, 03 November 2008

The Best Cyber-Defense...

I've previously posted Taking the Fight to the Enemy and Taking the Fight to the Enemy, Revisited. I agreed with sentiments like the following, quoted in my posts:

The best defense against cyberattacks on U.S. military, civil and commercial networks is to go on the offensive, said Marine Gen. James Cartwright, commander of the Strategic Command (Stratcom), said March 21 in testimony to the House Armed Services Committee.

“History teaches us that a purely defensive posture poses significant risks,” Cartwright told the committee. He added that if “we apply the principle of warfare to the cyberdomain, as we do to sea, air and land, we realize the defense of the nation is better served by capabilities enabling us to take the fight to our adversaries, when necessary, to deter actions detrimental to our interests...”


I found this idea echoed in the book Enemies: How America's Foes Steal Our Vital Secrets--and How We Let It Happen by Bill Gertz which I mentioned in Counterintelligence: Worse Than Security?. The author argues that the best way to protect a nation's intelligence from enemies is to attack the adversary's intelligence services. In other words, conduct aggressive counterintelligence to find out what the enemy knows about you. When you know what the enemy knows about you, you fight a more informed battle. You may even be able to alter his perception of you, and avoid a fight altogether.

I think Joe Stewart's latest post, Tracking Gimmiv, illustrates this point very well. Joe isn't a .mil or .gov operative, so he can't bomb anyone or put them in jail. He can conduct research operations, however, to learn the truth about the enemy's capabilities. Joe writes:

On October 23, 2008, Microsoft released an out-of-cycle emergency patch for a flaw in the Windows RPC code. The reason for this unusual occurance was the discovery of a “zero-day” exploit being used in the wild by a worm (or trojan, depending on how you look at it). The announcement of a new remote exploit for unpatched Windows systems always raises tension levels among network administrators. The fact that this one was already being used by a worm evoked flashbacks of Blaster and Sasser and other previous threats that severely impacted the networked world.

But, unlike these past worms, Gimmiv turned out to have infected scarcely any networks at all...

Because of some mistakes made by the author(s) of Gimmiv, third parties were able to download the logfiles of the Gimmiv control server. Although most of the data in the logs is AES-encrypted, we were able to find the key hardcoded in the Gimmiv binary and decrypt the data.

Although it has been reported that Gimmiv is a credential-stealing trojan, this functionality is actually not used - the gathered data is never sent. What is sent is simply basic system information, such as the Windows version, IP and MAC address, Windows install date/time and the default system locale. Using this data we were able to track exactly how many computers had been infected prior to October 23rd (after this time infection counts are somewhat skewed due to malware researchers all over the world investigating Gimmiv). As it turns out, only around 200 computers were infected since the time Gimmiv was actively deployed on September 29, 2008...

Additionally, a zip file left behind on one of the control servers contained Korean characters in the compressed folder name. For these two reasons, we believe Gimmiv’s author is probably from South Korea.
(emphasis added)


Joe took the fight to the enemy. This is what most malware researchers do; they infiltrate the adversary's systems to figure out what is happening. This isn't a task for novices, but it does yield excellent results.

Joe's work isn't strictly counterintelligence, since he is probably not opposing a foreign intelligence service. Speaking of counterintelligence, I noticed this August article New Unit of DIA Will Take the Offensive On Counterintelligence about the Defense Counterintelligence and Human Intelligence Center:

The Defense Intelligence Agency's newly created Defense Counterintelligence and Human Intelligence Center is going to have an office authorized for the first time to carry out "strategic offensive counterintelligence operations," according to Mike Pick, who will direct the program...

In strategic offensive counterintelligence operations, a foreign intelligence officer is the target, and the main goals most often are "to gather information, to make something happen . . . to thwart what the opposition is trying to do to us and to learn more about what they're trying to get from us," [Toby] Sullivan [director of counterintelligence for James R. Clapper Jr., the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence] said.
(emphasis added)

I found the transcript of the news conference contained this section mentioning cyber:

Q: Could you talk about the threats that you guys are sort of arrayed against? I’m thinking China has got to be high on your list. They seem to be in the news a lot for particularly defense technology, espionage. And I’m wondering where you fit into the whole cyber initiative that seems to be – so could you just talk about those and other things that you’re particularly focused on?

MR. SULLIVAN: The cyber initiative – there are other parts of the department that are responsible for protecting the IT systems of the department. The counterintelligence role in that – and we do have a role – is to provide some analysis and then, quite frankly, from an offensive capability, it provides us another venue to perhaps engage the enemy. But we don’t have a role in protecting the systems, if you will. There are other folks in the department that do that. As far as the threats, we had the Cold War threats and we have the today threats. There hadn’t been a whole lot of change over the last 20 or 30 years.


It will be interesting to (not) see how this new organization develops.

Selasa, 28 Oktober 2008

Vulnerabilities and Exploits Are Mindless

Jofny's comment on my post Unify Against Threats asked the following:

So, Richard, I'm curious which security people - who are decision makers at a business level - are focusing on vulnerabilities and not threats?

If there are people like that, they really need to be fired.


This comment was on my mind when I read the story FBI: US Business and Government are Targets of Cyber Theft in the latest SANS NewsBites:

Assistant Director in charge of the US FBI's Cyber Division Shawn Henry said that US government and businesses face a "significant threat" of cyber attacks from a number of countries around the world. Henry did not name the countries, but suggested that there are about two dozen that have developed cyber attack capabilities with the intent of using those capabilities against the US. The countries are reportedly interested in stealing data from targets in the US. Henry said businesses and government agencies should focus on shoring up their systems' security instead of on the origins of the attacks.

The editors' comments are the following:

(Pescatore): It really doesn't matter where the attacks come from, businesses have been getting hit by sophisticated, financially motivated, targeted attacks for several years now.
(Ullrich): A very wise remark. It doesn't matter who attacks you. The methods used to attack you and the methods used to defend yourself are the same. We spend too much time worrying about geographic origins. In cyberspace, nation states are a legacy concept.


This is the mindset that worries me, even though the FBI AD agrees. It ignores this fact: Vulnerabilities and exploits are mindless. On the other hand, intelligent adversaries are not. Therefore, if you are doing more than defending yourself against opportunistic, puerile attackers, it pays to know your enemy by learning about security threats (as shown on the book cover to the right).

Once your security program has matured to the point where not any old caveman can compromise you, it pays to put yourself in the adversary's place. Who might want to exploit your organization's data? What data would be targeted? How could you defend it? How could you detect failure? When complaining to the government and/or law enforcement, to whom can you attribute the attack? Knowing the enemy helps prioritize what to defend and how to do it.

About the AD telling businesses not to worry about threat sources: he's just quoting official FBI policy. I wrote about this in More Threat Reduction, Not Just Vulnerability Reduction:

Recently I attended a briefing were a computer crimes agent from the FBI made the following point:

Your job is vulnerability reduction. Our job is threat reduction.

In other words, it is beyond the legal or practical capability of most computer crime victims to investigate, prosecute, and incarcerate threats.


Let's briefly address the "In cyberspace, nation states are a legacy concept." comment. We've been hearing this argument for fifteen years or more. Last time I checked, nation states were alive and well and shaping the way cyberspace works. Just this morning I read the following Economist article Information technology: Clouds and judgment; Computing is about to face a trade-off between sovereignty and efficiency:

The danger is less that the cloud will be a Wild West than that it will be peopled by too many sheriffs scrapping over the rules. Some enforcers are already stirring up trouble, threatening employees of online companies in one jurisdiction to get their employers based in another to fork over incriminating data for instance. Several governments have passed new laws forcing online firms to retain more data. At some point, cloud providers may find themselves compelled to build data centres in every country where they do business.

Finally, independent actors do not operate intelligence services who target our enterprises; nation states do. I've written about Counterintelligence and the Cyber Threat before. Part of the problem may stem from a distinction Ira Winkler made at RSA 2006, which I noted in my post RSA Conference 2006 Wrap-Up, Part 3:

I highly recommend that those of you who give me grief about "threats" and "vulnerabilities" listen to what Mr. Winkler has to say. First, he distinguishes between those who perform security functions and those who perform counter-intelligence. The two are not the same. Security focuses on vulnerabilities, while counter-intelligence focus on threats.

Maybe I spend more time on the counterintelligence problem than others, but I can't see how vulnerability-centric security is a good idea -- except for those who sell "countermeasures."

Selasa, 29 Juli 2008

Counterintelligence: Worse than Security?

As a former Air Force intelligence officer, I'm very interested in counterintelligence. I've written about counterintelligence and the cyber-threat before. I'm reading a book about counterintelligence failures, and the following occurred to me. It is seldom in the self-interest of any single individual, department, or agency to identify homegrown spies. In other words, hardly anyone in the CIA wants to find a Russian spy working at Langley. If you disagree, examine the history of any agency suffering similar breaches. It isn't pretty; the degree to which people deny reality and then seek to cover it up is incredible.

In some ways this make sense. Nothing good comes from identifying a spy, other than (hopefully) a damage assessment of the spy's impact. Overall the national security of the country can be incredibly damaged, never mind the lives lost or harmed by the spy's actions. However, in case after case, the appeal to higher national security interests is frequently buried.

Reading this book, it also occurred to me that security has exactly the same problem. Spies are worse in most respects, and they could be equated to insider threats. However, just as with spies, in security it is seldom in the self-interest of any single individual, department, or agency to identify compromises. Despite the fact that an intruder is the perpetrator, the victim is often blamed for security breaches. The word "security failure" demonstrates that something bad has happened, so it must be the fault of the IT and security groups. (Imagine if a mugging was called a "personal security failure.")

Because of this reality, it seems that the only way to counter these self-interests is to task a central group, organizationally detached from the individual agencies, with identifying security breaches. In CI, this should be the job of the National Counterintelligence Executive (NCIX), but the Office of the Director of National Intelligence appears to have neutered the NCIX. In digital security, a headquarters-level group should independently assess the security of its constituents. These central groups must have the support of top management, or they will be ineffective.

Update: Fixed the "seldom" problem!

Minggu, 21 Oktober 2007

Counterintelligence and the Cyber Threat

Friday I attended an open symposium hosted by the Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive (ONCIX). It was titled Counterintelligence and the Cyber Threat and featured speakers and panels from government, law enforcement, industry, legal, and academic organizations. I attended as a representative of my company because our CSO, Frank Taylor, participated in the industry panel.

If you're not familiar with the term counterintelligence, let me reproduce a section from the OCNIX Web site:

Counterintelligence is the business of identifying and dealing with foreign intelligence threats to the United States. Its core concern is the intelligence services of foreign states and similar organizations of non-state actors, such as transnational terrorist groups. Counterintelligence has both a defensive mission — protecting the nation's secrets and assets against foreign intelligence penetration — and an offensive mission — finding out what foreign intelligence organizations are planning to better defeat their aims.

I also recommend reading the National Counterintelligence Strategy of the United States, 2007 (.pdf) which states:

Our adversaries -- foreign intelligence services, terrorists, foreign criminal enterprises and cyber intruders -- use overt, covert, and clandestine activities to exploit and undermine US national security interests. Counterintelligence is one of several instruments of national power that can thwart such activities, but its effectiveness depends in many respects on coordination with other elements of government and with the private sector.

During the Cold War, our nation's adversaries gained access to vital secrets of the most closely guarded institutions of our national security establishment and penetrated virtually all organizations of the US intelligence and defense communities. The resulting losses produced grave damage to our national security in terms of secrets compromised, intelligence sources degraded, and loves lost, and would have been catastrophic had we been at war.
(emphasis added)

Minor note 1: if we were not at war during the "Cold War," then why is it called a "War"? I believe the people who died fighting would call it a war.

Minor note 2: foreign intelligence services, terrorists, and foreign criminal enterprises are all specific parties. "Cyber intruders" are more often one of those previous parties. Those who perform digital attacks but do not fall into one of those three categories are usually script kiddies or recreational hackers, and should not be explicitly mentioned as counterintelligence targets. My guess is the report considers cyber-instantiated threats to be serious enough to somehow mention explicitly, but not enough intellectual rigor was applied to this sentence (like the Cold War section).

Major note: does the section about penetrating virtually all organizations of the US intelligence and defense communities surprise you? When I attended Air Force intelligence school in 1996-1997, one of our first instructors said:

"Most, if not all of the classified material you will see in your career has already been compromised. However, we have to act as if it's not."

I remembered thinking "What?!?" With hindsight, the more I hear about spies found inside government agencies, the more I understand that statement.

I found the symposium fascinating, so I'd like to share a few thoughts. Dr. Joel Brenner, the National Counterintelligence Executive, provided plenty of noteworthy comments. He said that counterintelligence is not security.

  • A security person sees a hole in a fence and wants to patch it.

  • A CI person sees a hole in a fence and wants to understand who created it, how it is being abused, and if it can be turned into an asset to use against the adversary.


Dr. Brenner said about 140 foreign intelligence surveillance organizations currently target the United States. Three strategic issues are at play:

  1. Threats to sovereign (US) networks, especially in the cyber domain. Dr. Brenner said There is growing acceptance that we face a cyber counterintelligence problem, not a security problem. I agree with this, and will have more to say about it in a future blog entry. He stressed the alteration attack (rather than the disclosure or destrucion attacks) as being the major problem facing US networks.

  2. Acquisition risk, i.e., supply chain risks. Dr. Brenner said we need technically literate lawyers and policymakers to address these risks.

  3. Collaboration, or the lack thereof. Dr. Brenner notes that out current "cooperation model" is a function of our "classification model," resulting in an antiquated system that serves no one well.


One of the most interesting comments was this:

Industry talks risk management but they really do risk acceptance, not risk mitigation.

How true that is!

Chris Inglis, Deputy Director of the NSA and a fellow USAFA grad, used a term I liked with regard to fighting the cyber adversary. He said we need to outmaneuver the adversary, not solve security problems. I love this because it implies "security" can't be "solved," and it provides a reason to review maneuver warfare as a way to counter the adversary.

John McClurg, Vice President for security at Honeywell, described his "validated data" approach to obtaining business buy-in for security initiatives. He collects data to support a security program and presents it to managers as a means to justify his work. This sounds a lot like showing evidence that a business unit is owned or about to be owned. I like this idea and my work with NSM would help provide such data.

Scott O’Neal, Chief Computer Intrusion Section, Cyber Division, FBI, said The adversary is clearly ahead of security. This is a fact we have to accept. This echoes statements I made earlier this year and at other times. The FBI addresses intrusions through three points of view: CT (counterterrorism), CI (counterintelligence) and criminal.

I'll have more to say on this subject in the months ahead.

Jumat, 31 Agustus 2007

Lessons from the Military

Jay Heiser is a smart guy, but I don't know why he became so anti-military when he wrote Military mindset no longer applicable in our line of work last year. He wrote in part:

The business world should stop looking to the defense community for direction on information security.

I used to believe that the practice of information security owed a huge debt to the military. I couldn't have been more wrong...

The business world doesn't need the defense community to help it develop secure technology, and, whenever it accepts military ideas, it winds up with the wrong agenda...

It's time our profession stops playing war games and gets in touch with its business roots.


I found two responses, Opinion: Military security legacy is one of innovation, integrity and Opinion: The importance of a military mindset, countering Mr. Heiser. I also found poll results showing 77% of respondents answered "absolutely critical" or "somewhat important" when reading the question "How important is a military mindset when planning and executing an enterprise security strategy?"

Well, it's Friday night and you know what that means in the Bejtlich household. That's right, time to watch a new episode of Dogfights. I don't have any insights based on the episode I just watched, but it reminded me of training I received my first summer at Camp USAFA.

One of the exercises we ran involved Air Base Ground Defense. We learned some basic principles and then acted first as attackers and then defenders. It occurred to me that ABGD is in some ways similar to defending digital assets, although we digital security people are not armed. This denies us the capability of truly deterring and incapacitating threats. Attribution is also easier when the enemy is physically present.

Still, I'd like to do my part showing Mr. Heiser what business can learn from the military. Much of corporate America (and Germany, and Japan) seems to be having its lunch eaten by the Chinese dragon, so it's time to take some lessons from people who do security for a living when lives are at stake.

I decided to take a look at DoD Joint Publications and found Joint Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for Base Defense. Just skimming it I found several very interesting sections. For example, the executive summary includes this:

The general characteristics of defensive operations are:

  1. to understand the enemy;

  2. see the battlefield;

  3. use the defenders’ advantages;

  4. concentrate at critical times and places;

  5. conduct counterreconnaissance and counterattacks;

  6. coordinate critical defense assets;

  7. balance base security with political and legal constraints;

  8. and know the law of war and rules of engagement.


I think digital non-military, non-police forces can do all of these except the counterattack portion of number 5. For that we need the military and police to act, or to have them deputize us. Notice numbers 1 and 2 imply monitoring, and number 4 implies being able to recognize critical times and places via digital situational awareness.

These items are displayed in the following graphic, which expands on number 3:



The document continues:

The primary mission of the base is to support joint force objectives.

In other words, the base does not exist to provide security. The base exists to perform "business functions."

Essential actions of the defense force are to detect, warn, deny, destroy, and delay. Every intelligence and counterintelligence resource available to the base commander should be used to determine enemy capabilities and intentions. The base commander must make the best use of the terrain within the commander’s AO [area of operation].

Again, we cannot destroy the enemy, but police and military can.

This final graphic displays some physical perimeter defense measures.



This graphic nicely displays principles like defense in depth. Notice also the "intrusion detection" system (labeled "sensor") and the "network forensics" system (labeled "video camera"). Visibility is provided by lighting. If you're a Jericho Forum fan, imagine these defenses collapsed around the host or even data.

I plan to take a closer look at this document and the Air Force version, AFI 31-301, Air Base Defense.

Rabu, 08 Agustus 2007

CIO Magazine on IP Theft

CIO magazine, which features an impossible-to-navigate Web site but decent print version, published Hacked: The Rising Threat of Intellectual Property Theft and What You Can Do About It by Stephanie Overby. I liked these excerpts:

“There’s a ceiling on how much money can be made by stealing identities,” says Scott Borg, director and chief economist of the U.S. Cyber Consequences Unit, an independent nonprofit institute set up at the request of the federal government to examine the economic and strategic consequences of cyberattacks. “You can actually steal the business—its processes, its internal negotiating memos, its merchandising plans, all the information it uses to create value. That’s a very large payoff.”

I agree, but what's up with the USCCU Web site? I had to find an archive from February 2006 to see what this group does. Spend a little of that DHS money on a Web site, folks.

CIOs may be less aware of the threat to IP than to their systems, and therefore less prepared to protect the former. “Companies are thinking about worms and viruses, things that will not have very bad consequences and have always been wildly exaggerated,” says Borg. “Or they’re thinking about ID theft, which attracts a lot of attention, even though the number of cases is remarkably low.”

There’s a difference, too, in the systems an intruder looking for corporate secrets may target. IP thieves “won’t necessarily look at obvious financially sensitive areas,” says Borg, thereby escaping detection. “They may be looking at technical data, controls systems, automation software.” And the results of IP theft can be hard to see—a slow degradation of one’s competitive position in the market may easily be attributed to other, noncriminal factors.

Until recently, the most conclusive public evidence that sustained industrial espionage has taken place in cyberspace has come from the military. Titan Rain was “the most systematic and high-quality attack we have seen,” says Ira Winkler, author of, most recently, Zen and the Art of Information Security. Chinese hackers successfully breached hundreds of unclassified networks within the Department of Defense, its contractors and several other federal agencies. One Air Force general admitted at an IT conference last year that China had downloaded 10 to 20 terabytes of data from DoD networks.
(emphasis added)

Forget about "slow degradation." In some future war over the Taiwan Straight an American jet fighter is going to dogfight a Chinese plane and lose the battle because some sensitive design or technical data was stolen. This is a constant in warfare as I mentioned in my post FISMA Dogfights.

To defend against targeted attacks, Motorola uses traditional controls such as firewalls, intrusion detection tools, antivirus software and digital forensics—but with a difference. “We’re operating our information security toolkit with a counterintelligence mind-set,” says Boni [Motorola CIO]. Like the military, Boni assumes there’s an enemy looking for an advantage and it’s his job to outwit him. “Putting those tools together with an understanding of what is or could be of greatest interest to competitors allows a more granular focus on the data,” says Boni, “not just on the network.”

Bingo. CI is exactly right.

The thought process is no longer making sure nothing bad ever happens,” says DuBois [general manager of information security and infrastructure services security for Microsoft]. “There may be a bug in the Cisco code or someone might misconfigure a device. If [attackers] get at that chess piece we left unprotected, what will we do?”...

“If eternal vigilance is the price of freedom,” says Boni, paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson, “continuous monitoring and preparation to respond quickly is the cost associated with global digital commerce.”
(emphasis added)

Again, exactly right. Prevention Eventually Fails. Detection. Response. Hopefully more CIOs will pay attention.

Minggu, 28 Agustus 2005

Real Threat Reporting

In an environment where too many people think that flaws in SSH or IIS are "threats," (they're vulnerabilities), it's cool to read a story about real threats. Nathan Thornbourgh's story in Time, The Invasion Of The Chinese Cyberspies (And the Man Who Tried to Stop Them), examines Titan Rain, a so-called "cyberespionage ring" first mentioned by Bradley Graham in last week's Washington Post.

The Time story centers on Shawn Carpenter, an ex-Navy and now ex-Sandia National Laboratories security analyst. The story says:

"As he had almost every night for the previous four months, he worked at his secret volunteer job until dawn, not as Shawn Carpenter, mid-level analyst, but as Spiderman—the apt nickname his military-intelligence handlers gave him—tirelessly pursuing a group of suspected Chinese cyberspies all over the world. Inside the machines, on a mission he believed the U.S. government supported, he clung unseen to the walls of their chat rooms and servers, secretly recording every move the snoopers made, passing the information to the Army and later to the FBI.

The hackers he was stalking, part of a cyberespionage ring that federal investigators code-named Titan Rain, first caught Carpenter's eye a year earlier when he helped investigate a network break-in at Lockheed Martin in September 2003. A strikingly similar attack hit Sandia several months later, but it wasn't until Carpenter compared notes with a counterpart in Army cyberintelligence that he suspected the scope of the threat. Methodical and voracious, these hackers wanted all the files they could find, and they were getting them by penetrating secure computer networks at the country's most sensitive military bases, defense contractors and aerospace companies."

I read this and thought, "Whoa, this guy is saying too much. Game over for him." Then I read this:

"[T]he Army passed Carpenter and his late-night operation to the FBI. He says he was a confidential informant for the FBI for the next five months. Reports from his cybersurveillance eventually reached the highest levels of the bureau's counterintelligence division, which says his work was folded into an existing task force on the attacks. But his FBI connection didn't help when his employers at Sandia found out what he was doing. They fired him and stripped him of his Q clearance, the Department of Energy equivalent of top-secret clearance. Carpenter's after-hours sleuthing, they said, was an inappropriate use of confidential information he had gathered at his day job. Under U.S. law, it is illegal for Americans to hack into foreign computers.

Carpenter is speaking out about his case, he says, not just because he feels personally maligned—although he filed suit in New Mexico last week for defamation and wrongful termination. The FBI has acknowledged working with him: evidence collected by TIME shows that FBI agents repeatedly assured him he was providing important information to them. Less clear is whether he was sleuthing with the tacit consent of the government or operating as a rogue hacker. At the same time, the bureau was also investigating his actions before ultimately deciding not to prosecute him."

Now I understand why Time has all these details!

I would like more technical clarification of this point:

"When he uncovered the Titan Rain routers in Guangdong, he carefully installed a homemade bugging code in the primary router's software. It sent him an e-mail alert at an anonymous Yahoo! account every time the gang made a move on the Net. Within two weeks, his Yahoo! account was filled with almost 23,000 messages, one for each connection the Titan Rain router made in its quest for files."

What does this mean? It sounds like Carpenter took control of the routers and then, what?

I cite this story because it talks about how sophisticated threats operate:

"Carpenter had never seen hackers work so quickly, with such a sense of purpose. They would commandeer a hidden section of a hard drive, zip up as many files as possible and immediately transmit the data to way stations in South Korea, Hong Kong or Taiwan before sending them to mainland China. They always made a silent escape, wiping their electronic fingerprints clean and leaving behind an almost undetectable beacon allowing them to re-enter the machine at will. An entire attack took 10 to 30 minutes."

That's how professionals work.